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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 21, 2010 4:47pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I Need a Miracle every day - non dead

Yeah, the Intelligent Design stuff is even whackier than Creastionism. It's the most philosophical barren to say "we can't understand, so it must be designed...but we won't say how or whom!" (at least faith based ones make their assumptions clear).

The beauty (yes, truly) of science is that in spite of human nature, it works. Individual scientists are just that: human, with all the failings (ego, pride, selfishness, etc., etc.). But, science as a process rewards (eventually, and not necessarily in their lifetime) those that test and refute theories, even the most popular...often, the first refutation does not allow the individual to benefit (again, human frailties intercede, and the upstart may be blackballed, etc., etc.), but eventually, it (better theory, whatever) wins out (often not fully til the old guard in power passes away).

I think the greatest misunderstanding about science is the popular conflation of "scientists" with "science" in this specific manner (ie, scientists do not have to be completely objective, can be "human", etc., etc.; though of course, there is the much discussed scientific method that does help avoid those traditional human shortcomings in the here and now too).

Probably more than you wanted, eh?

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jan 22, 2010 3:44pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I Need a Miracle every day - non dead

The problem with scientists is that they claim to speak for science, and yet make assumptions about what they say they can't know.

RE: Intelligent Design, you might check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Hoyle, his The Intelligent Universe was quite good.

But I put my money on absolute control not arbitrariness, esp what they call Occasionalism. We all live in "bubbles."

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss... In your eyes, I feel complete...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsEa03p32cg

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 22, 2010 4:05pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I Need a Miracle every day - non dead

Uh...you got me with this one: "The problem with scientists is that they claim to speak for science, and yet make assumptions about what they say they can't know."

Uh...why wouldn't one make assumptions about "I can't know what you are thinking?" or "I can't know if there is this or that deity via the rational methods of science."?

I shudder to think you are now going to support an ID perspective...

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jan 22, 2010 4:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I Need a Miracle every day - non dead

I'd like to reconvene on the above tomorrow - too tired now to do it justice but I'm provoked. A night's sleep might make me feel more inclined to take prisoners.

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jan 22, 2010 4:50pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I Need a Miracle every day - non dead

There's group think in science even if you want to deny it. A prof at my school Robert Resnick talked about the decades it took for many accepted principles to make it into physics textbooks. And he's not even a critic of science.

The point I was making is that you can't just assume there's no god. That's not rational.

And beyond that there's different forms of logic, some developed in Buddhist Afghanistan, that are just on and off. It's akin to "chaos theory" not being about randomness but instead about a different order of organization.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 22, 2010 6:20pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I Need a Miracle every day - non dead

OK, you're clearly not reading what I am writing...I outlined science as a process vs scientists; this addresses precisely the point you raised...maybe you missed it ("group think"; I didn't deny it, I acknowledged it, and addressed it).

Sorry, too tired to repeat myself; check it and go from there.

And as to your other point, covered that as well: agnostic on the principle, as a scientist. Don't "assume" anything on that front. Now, as to what I believe, I don't believe in this, and I don't believe in that...where do you or any religious sort get off saying "here! my theory on God is the ONE you have to consider to believe! And if you assume something...it's trouble!" when you turn down any number of whacky theories put forth by any number of folks?

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jan 22, 2010 7:05pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I Need a Miracle every day - non dead

For "process" you could look at laboratory life studies & the sociology of science, some history of science, and dose of postmodernism too. Science, no matter how we define it, is intertwined with the industrial and military technologies that grounded European movement into and around the world (with extreme prejudice).

It is not "objective" scholarship. When knowledge becomes static, enforced by authority, organized into inflexible social relationships, taught rather than discovered, then knowledge is in the service of power.

The motto is "kill all the brutes." We can see that Nazi science had bias, but our systems with us as the beasties -- no way.

Ok, science is provisional, and that's been accepted at least since Kant.

You say "eventually, it (better theory, whatever) wins out (often not fully til the old guard in power passes away)." Maybe you didn't realize that this is what I was disagreeing with. Or maybe it's your time scale since the results aren't in yet on our species extinction. Anyway René Magritte's The Castle in the Pyrenees is how I see the western consensus reality (where's the "ground"):
http://momofmonkeys.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/rene_magritte_castle_in_the_pyrenees.jpg


And as to your other point, you do seem tired. I didn't insist on a theory as absolute fact, but I did tell you what I thought. I haven't seen any "whacky theories put forth by any number of folks" in this thread.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 22, 2010 8:26pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I Need a Miracle every day - non dead

The good thing about postmodernity is that it is self-refuting...and yep, I buy completely that science is often entertwined with culture, etc. Fortunately, the good guys win eventually.

The best defense of how science does indeed win out is to look at Stalinist USSR in the 30s under the direction of their scientist, Stalin's best bud, Lysenko...try as they might, they could not fight natural selection and Darwinism...they wanted good old Markist Lamarckianism, but after ten yrs, they had to give up...capitalist inspired "science" won (well, the truth really).

This and many other history of science cases show how science ain't perfect, but eventually the truth, such as we know it, comes to the fore...

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Jan 23, 2010 5:15am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I Need a Miracle every day - non dead

Even if all this has a kernel of truth somewhere (along with a whopping dose of paranoia), are you saying it is all actually a reason to believe in God?

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jan 23, 2010 8:48am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I Need a Miracle every day - non dead

"the truth, such as we know it, comes to the fore... "

Yes, it's the such-as-we-know-it part that's the concern.

And no that's not enough to believe in God, but it is an opening. It can open wider by pondering beauty and consciousness, listening to the still small voice of conscience. It can be closed by choosing the chicken or egg or some self-organizing complexity as an answer to the question of first cause.

Once in that abyss, facing death's honesty (I have a hard time leaving Dylan behind), you can still ask God, a word from a Proto-Indo-European root meaning either "to call" or "to invoke." That's very close in meaning to the Biblical Elohim and Alaha and the Quranic Allah.

I don't think mumbling the words works on scoundrels or the prideful so well, but Deadheads are generally a kindly bunch, so the call might be answered.

And sure we *should* be skeptical of the likes of those imagined in Estimated Prophet -- and ones like me who can only communicate with broken phrases. But I don't think the everyone impressed by lightning storms are crazy or talking about a man:

I'll call down thunder
And speak the same
And my word fills the sky with flame
And might and glory gonna be my name
And men gonna light my way

The storyteller makes no choice
soon you will not hear his voice
his job is to shed light
and not to master

Take what you have gathered from coincidence.

This post was modified by spacedface on 2010-01-23 16:48:02

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Jan 23, 2010 8:17am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I Need a Miracle every day - non dead

What? I have a hard time following you.

Those lyrics are not among my favorite Dead lyrics. I think Let it Grow is a beautiful song - musically. I always cringed a bit for Bob singing those lyrics.

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jan 23, 2010 8:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I Need a Miracle every day - non dead

Sorry I mixed Estimated Prophet with Terrapin to contrast Robert Hunter's experience in a lightning storm writing Terrapin to the supposed crazy person in EP.

You not the only woman I've know that doesn't like the lyrics to Let It Grow:
http://artsites.ucsc.edu/GDead/agdl/grow.html

I like it, but maybe the Clapton songs are better, Let It Rain and Let It Grow.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Jan 25, 2010 6:17pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I Need a Miracle every day - non dead

I love Clapton's Let it Grow. I don't remember the words though. My objection to Gd Let It Grow is the words, not the music.

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Jan 21, 2010 7:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I Need a Miracle every day - non dead

whackier is a nice word for it. I can think of a few others that are not so nice.

if can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

This post was modified by elbow1126 on 2010-01-22 03:30:22

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Poster: cush212 Date: Jan 21, 2010 5:01pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I Need a Miracle every day - non dead

Gawl Dang Tell... Yer smarter than I thought for a guy stuck in 1968 ;)...

How's things in AZ???

Been pretty cold (having become a wimpy Zonie myself) windy and VERY wet here this week!!!

Your pal, J

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Poster: cosmico Date: Jan 21, 2010 8:46pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I Need a Miracle every day - non dead

Well dang, I'm stuck in 1958! Wrong forum for me, but I just wanted to say that. :)

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Poster: cush212 Date: Jan 21, 2010 9:20pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I Need a Miracle every day - non dead

Expect more to be on the way too... Last blast through here was around noon today, so you're already probably seeing it, but expecting another manana...

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Poster: cosmico Date: Jan 21, 2010 9:27pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I Need a Miracle every day - non dead

They're saying tomorrow morning around rush hour will be pretty stormy. I'm just hoping the huge eucalyptus tree in our yard doesn't end up on my house...or on my neighbor's house.

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Poster: cush212 Date: Jan 21, 2010 9:16pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I Need a Miracle every day - non dead

;)

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 22, 2010 9:43am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I Need a Miracle every day - non dead

Hope it's all working out with your new life in sunny (?) CA!

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Poster: cush212 Date: Jan 22, 2010 1:00pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I Need a Miracle every day - non dead

Going OK so far... Has not been very sunny of late though... Soggy is more like it! Sounds like you all are getting hammered pretty hard too...